For my mother and sister it is also about the belief of soon living in paradise on Earth in which there is no more evil and no more suffering, along with obtaining eternal life with perfect health. The most recent time I talked with my mother I sensed great joy in her while she talked about the the world getting worse in many ways and that thus (to her) the great tribulation will soon begin. That is because to her the apparent very great increase of trouble is tremendous evidence that deliverance is very near and that the new order of Christ's rule is very near - Matthew 24:33 and Luke 21:25-28 (1984 NWT).
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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Prediction of how Watchtower going to be in 5 Years.
by Foolednomore ini can see it that watchtower will become an online/tv based group with just con-vention hall$.. field service would be letter writing and phone preaching, door to door is done.. watchtower will have pay to view programs and still ask for donations after all that.. zoom meetings are here to stay.
kingdumb halls will be sold off except for con-vention venues, or need for new ones$.. df'ing will continue.
the craziness will continue.
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Disillusioned JW
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Jesus is Michael the Archangel
by Fisherman inonly jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.
“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.
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Disillusioned JW
Fisherman, I am glad that my comments did not offend you. I think might have offended some one of more person, by possibly too strongly wording the comment of "It is getting very tiresome for me to argue an use reason with apologists of supernaturalism and Christian fundamentalism on the subjects of supernaturalism and theology." If that is the case, I apologize for that. Like my statement of "The idea of an inner supernatural spirit is ... repugnant to me, might have been too strongly stated and thus possibly offensive to one or more persons. If that is the case, I apologize for that.
Sea Breeze and others, what disturbs me about the hypothetical idea of an inner supernatural spirit (at least if conscious) in humans that have mortal bodies, is that the such a spirit has the potential of becoming disembodied upon the death the physical fleshly body (which I think would be an unpleasant experience) and possibly ending up in hell with eternal conscious torment. There is also the hypothetical possibility that if disembodied spirits exist, whether of the human dead or of some other kind, they might do tremendous evils to other spirits and to living humans. The apostle Paul in one of his letters said he doesn't want the experience of being a naked (disembodied) spirit but wants to a be resurrected as a spirit which is clothed with a spiritual body in heaven. He said that sense fleshly physical bodies exist then spiritual bodies also exist. The following shows how the concept of a disembodied spirit can be frightening to some people.
Luke 24:36-38 said that some disciples of Jesus were afraid that they saw a spirit (apparently, or most likely, in the sense of a disembodied spirit) and some Bibles use the word "apparition" (namely a disembodied spirit) in verse 37, when Jesus himself suddenly stood in their midst. Verses 39-41 then say that Jesus convinced them he was not a spirit (probably meaning a disembodied spirit) for he said that he has flesh and bones and that spirits don't have such. But note that despite seeing and hearing such verse 41 says the disciples were still unbelieving. Verses 41-43 say that Jesus thus ate some broiled fish before their eyes to solve that problem.
Sea Breeze and others, in my prior post where I listed atheistic books which addressed a question by Sea Breeze about Man and Death, which addressed a claim regarding the Resurrection of Christ, I should have also listed a book by Richard Carrier called Not the Impossible Faith: Why Christianity Didn’t Need a Miracle to Succeed. That is because one section (or chapter) of the book is specifically called "Was Resurrection Deemed Impossible?" Regarding that see https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard-carrier-improbable-resurrection/ and https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard-carrier-improbable/ . See also an article by him at https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard-carrier-resurrection-lecture/ . See also https://infidels.org/kiosk/book/not-the-impossible-faith-why-christianity-didnt-need-a-miracle-to-succeed/.
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JULY 15TH STUDY EDITION :"If ever that evil slave..." page 24
by raymond frantz inbox on page 24 of the july 15th titled :"if ever the evil slave....".
jesus has placed the weightiest of responsibilities on the faithful and discreet slave-namely,overseeing the domestics and giving out spiritual food atthe proper time.
jesus knew that those with greater responsibility have greater accountability.
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Disillusioned JW
Vanderhoven7, I agree that according to the NT gospels "Jesus encouraged believers to be ready at all times precisely because the timing of the parousia would be unknown."
You make a good point in regards to that, but interestingly in regards to the flood of Noah's day Genesis 6:3 quotes Yahweh as saying he will limit man's days to 120 years. That verse seems to be saying that Yahweh said to someone (probably Noah) that he will destroy humans (other than those who board the Ark to was to be built) 120 years after the day the pronouncement was made. It seems less likely that means no individual humans of future times would live more than 120 years since the Bible says that a number of Noah's descendants lived much longer than that. But perhaps the account suggests the pronouncement was made at an earlier time (perhaps uttered to Enoch) since Genesis 5:32 says Noah got to be 500 years old before fathering his three sons and Genesis 7:6,11 say Noah was 600 years old when the deluge began - a difference of 100 years between the two incidents and thus less than 120 years.Regarding Enoch see Genesis 5:24 which suggests that Enoch was very holy, Jude 14-15, and in the Bible translated by Goodspeed and Smith see the NT Preface and see 1 Peter 3:19-20 which both state the name Enoch (instead of using the word "he"); see also also Moffatt's Bible in regards to the mention of Enoch in 1 Peter 3:19.
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Jesus is Michael the Archangel
by Fisherman inonly jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.
“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze, in answer to your question of 'Why don't you ... try to mount a defense of the WT's definition of Man & Death?" I say the following. I don't have much interest in specifically defending the WT's ideas, per se, though I do defend some ideas which the WT also has. Furthermore, the WT says Man and Woman were created by Jehovah God about 6,000 years ago using a non-evolutionary process, with God breathing into Adam to make him a living soul. I totally disagree with that teaching of WT and thus I will not defend that WT teaching.
But. regarding the defense of the Atheistic ideas pertaining to the definition of Human and Death, months ago I did that by making a post which directed people to atheistic naturalism books and human evolution books for people to read. Those books make a very strong case of such. I see no point in me writing a long online post to defend such when those books already give an excellent defense. Furthermore, I am writing an atheistic book which makes arguments for naturalism and evolution and I want what I say on the subject to be copyright protected, thus I am confining most of what I say about it to within my book.
Here are some excellent books which discuss those subjects. The first one especially mentions subjects pertaining to naturalism, including of the human mind, in detail. People with sincere interest in learning the arguments and evidence in support of such to see if the ideas are true can take the initiative to read those books.
- Sense and Goodness Without God: A Defense of Metaphysical Naturalism, by Richard Carrier [I read much of that book.
- Why I Became an Atheist: A Former Preacher Rejects Christianity (Revised & Expanded), by John W. Loftus [I own that book and have read most of it.]
- Christianity in the Light of Science: Critically Examining the World's Largest Religion, Edited by John W. Loftus [It includes a section pertaining to the concept of the existence of the soul.]
- God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist, by Victor J. Stenger [One of the topics it discusses if God has endowed humans with immaterial souls. I own that book and have read most of it.]
- The New Atheism: Taking a Stand for Science and Reason, by Victor J. Stenger [I own that book and have read much of it. See https://web.archive.org/web/20140812062341/http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/NewAth.html# . It says in part the following. "In The New Atheism, I review and expand upon the principles of New Atheism and answer many of its critics. I show how naturalism, the view that everything is matter and nothing more, is sufficient to explain everything we observe in the universe from the most distant galaxies to the inner workings of the brain that result in the phenomenon of mind. Nowhere is it necessary to introduce God or the supernatural to understand the world. I dispute the claim that science has nothing to say about God and argue that absence of evidence is evidence of absence when evidence should be there and is not.]
- God and the Folly of Faith: The Incompatibility of Science and Religion, by Victor J. Stenger [I own that book and have read much of it. An online description of it says in part the following. "The author goes on to detail how religion and science are fundamentally incompatible in several areas: the origin of the universe and its physical parameters, the origin of complexity, holism versus reductionism, the nature of mind and consciousness, and the source of morality."]
Regarding definitions of Human in terms of anatomy and how humans came into existence, there are many biology college textbooks (including ones which explain and prove human evolution) and anatomy books and physical anthropology (with content about human evolution) books on those subjects.
Sea Breeze, I reject the claim that naturalism (such as scientific naturalism and philosophical naturalism) is a "religion that requires immense faith in order to ignore substantial circumstantial evidence surrounding the Resurrection of Christ, Near Death Experiences, and Terminal Lucidity cases." At least one of books by Lotus and at least one of the books by Stenger provide evidence and reasoning disproving the claim that naturalism "requires immense faith in order to ignore substantial circumstantial evidence surrounding the Resurrection of Christ" and "Near Death Experiences", though I am not sure if they specifically address the topic of "Terminal Lucidity cases". I also reject the idea that philosophical materialism that which you called "naturalistic materialism" are religions. -
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Jesus is Michael the Archangel
by Fisherman inonly jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.
“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze and others, I apologize for some remarks I made in two of my recent posts. I was in a very irritated/angry mood at the time, but I shouldn't have said some of what I said. I plan to make a more detailed apology later (and state some updated views I have regarding the concept of the soul and spirit) after I get off work today.
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JULY 15TH STUDY EDITION :"If ever that evil slave..." page 24
by raymond frantz inbox on page 24 of the july 15th titled :"if ever the evil slave....".
jesus has placed the weightiest of responsibilities on the faithful and discreet slave-namely,overseeing the domestics and giving out spiritual food atthe proper time.
jesus knew that those with greater responsibility have greater accountability.
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Disillusioned JW
Where I said 'I pending detailed reply to it" I should have said "I intend to reply to it in a pending post".
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Jesus is Michael the Archangel
by Fisherman inonly jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.
“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: in my post where I said "... that the WT in saying ..." I meant to say "... that the WT is wrong in saying ...".
Further information: Sea Breeze, when I wrote of discovering that the Bible has numerous contradictions which contributed to me disbelieving in the Bible as being inspired of God, I wasn't thinking of what the Bible says about the human soul and human spirit. Back then I was perplexed by some of the what the Bible says about the soul and spirit, but I hadn't used that as evidence of the Bible being contradictory. Likewise I hadn't used statements in the Bible regarding whether Jesus is God or not as evidence of contradictions in the Bible that call into question of whether the Bible is God's word or not. Instead when I think of contradictions in the Bible which indicate it is not inspired of God I am thinking of other matters.
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Jesus is Michael the Archangel
by Fisherman inonly jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.
“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: In the post which said "Christian apologists seem to think that all Christians who become atheists quickly became Christians, but they are wrong" I meant to say "Christian apologists seem to think that all Christians who become atheists quickly became atheists, but they are wrong."
By the way folks, my two prior posts were submitted more than 24 hours ago, but for some reason unknown to me they didn't post till more than 12 hours later. That sort of thing has happened before.
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Jesus is Michael the Archangel
by Fisherman inonly jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.
“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze, I have thought of a number of those verses you mentioned regarding people having a spirit within them. Yes when I think of them (both when I was a believing JW and after I became a naturalist) they always perplex me when I try to reconcile what they say from the WT point of view. Furthermore, from the atheistic naturalist point of view which I now embrace they are nonsense and superstition and foolishness to me. In regard to the latter I agree with part of 1 Corinthians 2:14. In a number of places Paul says some of his ideas are foolishness to some people and I agree with that for a number of his ideas are foolishness to me.
Your drawing my attention to verses about an inner supernatural spirit within humans does not make me want to to believe in those ideas. Instead to the extent it convinces me that the Bible teaches such others with the meaning you say they have, to that extent it reinforces my idea that vast majority of the Bible is falsehood. There is no way a person can prove that the Bible is right in saying a supernatural kind of spirit is inside people. As a result, the biblical teaching of such is superstition.The idea of an inner supernatural spirit is nonsense to me and repugnant to me. Likewise of idea of inviting the Christ or God the Father to indwell in me is also repugnant to me (including when I was an independent Christian), because to me such is a teaching of a form of spirit possession. I hate the idea of any spirit being getting inside me and controlling me, whether it be an evil spirit (such as the devil or a demon or a ghost of a dead human) or a good spirit (such as Christ or God the Father).
In regards to these concepts and some other spiritual concepts I have never been spiritually inclined and never spiritually minded. Since early childhood I have been naturally inclined to naturalism and to science. I was born with no belief in a god (even in God) and with no belief in spirits and I wish I had never been taught to believe in those concepts. To me it is utter insanity that most of humankind worldwide believes in the supernatural, including spirits. To me, to a certain degree, the concept of living among people who believe in spirits is like being a sane person locked in an insane asylum full of insane people! To me the belief of spirits is appalling. That is part of reason I reason to Christians, with me having the hope of persuading some of them to become atheistic naturalists. I have left the JW religion and Christianity and Christian congregational worship attendance because I am not of the same sort as those who are Christians (no matter what version of Christianity they believe in). - 1 John 2:19
So-called infidelity to Christian beliefs (being unfaithful to Christian doctrines; abandoning belief in Christian doctrines) is what appeals to me, such as the agnostic writings of Robert Ingersoll. I purchased a book, edited by a hardcore promoter of atheism, of many of the agnostic writings of Robert Ingersoll. It is a great book.
The main reason why I still keep many English translations of the Bible is so that I can use them to try to correct the thinking of supernatually minded Christians, so that hopefully they will become atheists.Update: Sea Breeze, in regarding your posts about the humans having a spirit within them, I am starting to believe you are correct in saying that the Bible teaches such and that the WT in saying the Bible does not teach such. But as a result that makes the Bible seem more full of false teachings.
The concept of humans consisting of body, eternal soul, and eternal spirit which you say the OT teaches seems to me to be the essentially the same as the ideas held by the ancient Egyptians, ancient Sumerians, ancient Babylonians, and ancient Assyrians, as well as that many other ancient peoples. That concept of those ancient peoples (since the time I learned they believed in such) and in an afterlife in Sheol has been nonsense to me since the times I learned they had that concept.
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Jesus is Michael the Archangel
by Fisherman inonly jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.
“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.
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Disillusioned JW
I did not rush into atheism. I moved towards atheism over a period of 15 years from 1995 to 2010! Why do you assume I rushed to it? I wish I had adopted it before the year 1981! I only jettison WT teachings and biblical teachings to the extent that I see proof of those various teachings being false! I don't rush to change my long held convictions, since rushing would likely result in me discarding many true convictions/beliefs! Christian apologists seem to think that all Christians who become atheists quickly became Christians, but they are wrong. You are not he first to incorrectly say I quickly became an atheist!
Sea Breeze do you realize that the latter part of your quote of Richard Lewontin is one which the WT has used in their efforts to disprove evolution? You have failed to jettison that WT idea (which they likely got from other creationists quoting Lewontin). You have also failed to jettison supernaturalism.
Regardless of the quote accredited to Lewontin, I strongly disagree that materialism, and especially naturalism, is a world-view that is adopted as an assumption, instead of a worldview adopted as a conclusion derived from evidence and reason. At least by me, naturalism was not adopted as an assumption. Since I was raised as a JW and thus a Christian and thus a Bible believer I started with the assumption/premise of supernaturalism and then tested with it observations and experiments of my own to determine if the premise is instead false (or extremely likely false).
My observations, including of tests, indicated supernaturalism is false or at least extremely likely false. I could not find any trace of the supernatural at all and I even searched for ghosts by visiting and searching places which were purported to have spirits and by interviewing people who claimed to have experienced the supernatural. I also prayed to God (under the names/concepts of Yahweh, Jesus, the Trinity, and an unknown god) to provide me with evidence of his/her/its existence which he/she/it knows would convince me - but i never received any evidence which convinced me of his existence! What more could I possibly do to discover proof of the supernatural? Nothing.
Furthermore, I don't claim to be a materialist, but rather a naturalist (a more inclusive term), since I do recognize non-material natural 'things'/attributes such as mathematics, ideas, emotions, and such.
It is getting very tiresome for me to argue an use reason with apologists of supernaturalism and Christian fundamentalism on the subjects of supernaturalism and theology.
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Sea Breeze, I noticed that in your recent post which has a diagram of the idea of the "tri-partite nature of man (Jesus)" that you said "his spirit was the indivisible essence of God". When I read that it seemed to me that one idea expressed in that statement was that God the Father in his entirety existed fully in Jesus when Jesus was on Earth. But because I never accepted that idea, including never accepted it as being biblical, and because I read very few people express that idea, I assumed that you don't mean that idea. Are you saying you have that idea? Do you even believe that God the Father entirely existed in Jesus while Jesus was in the womb of Mary, thus making Mary literally the mother of God the Father and not just of Jesus?
Regarding your quote of the KJV translation of 1 Timothy 3:16, keep in mind that I rarely read more than a few paragraphs in any given day from the KJV. It never has been the main Bible I use. I have very little appreciation for the KJV Bible translation - I much more strongly prefer the RV and ASV to it. The main reasons why I read the KJV at all is because so many English speaking Christians read it and because much of the WTS literature prior to about the year 1940 quoted from it so very much. Keep also in mind that while I was an active believer in JW religion's core teachings [from early childhood (starting before baptism) through about 20 years as a baptized JW (though in my prior post I incorrectly wrote 25 years)] virtually the only time I read a Bible it was the NWT. The NWT says "He" in that verse instead of "God" and I remember that as a JW I read the WT make its case for its wording by quoting English Bibles which say "He" in that verse of translations of Greek manuscripts which support that wording. Thus I read the WTS make its case that the verse does not support the Trinity.
A number of Bibles (due to variances in the Greek manuscripts) including the RSV and the NASB (of 1975) except in their footnote to the verse, the NRSV, the NASB Updated edition of 1995, and the REB (not just the NWT) say 'He" in 1 Timothy 3:16 instead of "God". Nearly all of the times when I read that verse I read it in translations which say "He". I thus understood it to be talking only about Jesus Christ the Son of God and not God the Father, and I understood it to be talking about Jesus in a nontrinitarian sense. The RV, ARV (copyright 1898), and the ASV each say "He who" in the main text and in their translators' footnote to the verse they make the following impressive claim. "The word God in place of He who, rests on no sufficient ancient evidence. Some ancient authorities read which."
I find myself thinking, reading, and writing about theology far more than I think is beneficial to me. Much of that is due to discussions on this website. Since I am now an atheist I really need to spend drastically less time on the subject of theology, primarily confining it only to the purpose of convincing people to stop believing in Christianity, most of the Bible, and the existence of the biblical God and other alleged spirit beings. Furthermore my efforts of tried to convince people of atheistic philosophic naturalism should primarily be done in me completing my atheistic book which attempts to achieve such. I have spent most of last Saturday and much of last Friday thinking about theology when I could have spent that time thinking about other topics and doing other tasks.For example today (hours before 'sunrise') I read fascinating articles about the species Homo floresiensis possibly still being alive! See the following articles.
- https://earthsky.org/earth/hobbits-indonesia-homo-floresiensis-relic-hominins/
If scientist finds living individuals of that species and presents the proof of them to the public that would be tremendous! It would cause many people to believe that human evolution happened, including the macro evolution of our species of humans from a species (though not necessarily of Homo floresiensis) which looks very nonhuman.